| TRANSCRIPT: "APOCALYPSE NOW?"  (WASHINGTON, D.C., JULY 27, 2006) -- The following is a transcript from yesterday's segment entitled "Apocalypse Now?" on CNN's "Live From..." with anchor Kyra Phillips:
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN: So dig this. A man was bulldozing a bog in central Ireland the other day when he noticed something unusual in the freshly turned soil. It turns out he'd unearthed an early medieval treasure, an ancient Book of Psalms that experts date to the years 800 to 1000. Experts say it will take years to document and preserve this book, but eventually it will go on public display. Now here's the kicker: the book -- about 20 pages of Latin script -- was allegedly found opened to Psalm 83. Now, if you're a scholar, as you know [in] Psalm 83 God hears complaints that other nations plotting to wipe out teh name of Israel. Well that's precisely the kind of news nuggest that would get the attention of my next guests -- a seemingly random event with an eerie coincidence to reality. Jerry Jenkins is in New York. Now along with Tim LaHaye, he co-authored the widely popular LEFT BEHIND series, only 63 million copies sold, by the way. Also joining me is Joel Rosenberg in Washington. He is the author of THE COPPER SCROLL, the latest of several apocalyptic novels. So, gentlemen, from books to blogs to the back pews, the buzz is all about the End Times. What do you think about the Book of Psalms. Is this going to be the next thing that both of you are going to write about?
JERRY JENKINS: That's an amazing news story. I hadn't heard it.
PHILLIPS: Really? OK, this is news to you, then.
JENKINS: It's some ways it's not terribly surprising. I think God finds ways of speaking to us and He does that through His Word. That's an incredible story, and it would probably have to be told in fiction form because people are going to find it hard to believe.
PHILLIPS: Well, Jerry, you've sold 63 million-plus books about the End Times. Why do think they have been so successful, and why did you decide to go that route? Why did you want to write about it?
JENKINS: Well, the idea for fiction about the End Times was really Dr. LaHaye's. He's a prophecy scholar and theologian. He's been studying this stuff longer than I've been alive. But he just had the idea that after writing several non-fiction books about the subject that if we could put it in a fiction format that more people would find it accessible and understandable and that's proven true. And because of the end of the millennium, and because of 9/11, and because of what's going on in the Middle East right now, people are scared to death about the future and I think they hear about books that are based on the prophecies of Scripture and it just intrigues them and makes them want to find out what we think.
PHILLIPS: So, Joel, are we living in the last days? I mean, let's talk about the specific signs to watch. You've written about them. What does the Bible say, and are we there?
JOEL ROSENBERG: People are very interested, I agree. Tim and Jerry's books deal with the Rapture, the disappearance of the Church and the events going forward through the Book of Revelation. My series -- The Ezekiel Option, The Copper Scroll -- deal with events that could lead up the Rapture and the return of Christ. Yes, people are interested because the rebirth of Israel, the fact that Jews are living in the Holy Land today, that is a Bible prophecy. When Iran, Libya, Syria, Lebanon, Russia begin to form an alliance against Israel those are the prophecies from Ezekiel 38 and 39, and that's what I'm basing my novels on. I've been invited to the White House, Capitol Hill, by Members of Congress, Israelis, Arab leaders -- all want to understand the Middle East through the lens of Biblical prophecies. I'm writing these novels that keep seeming to come true, but we're seeing Bible prophecy bit by bit unfold in the Middle East right now.
PHILLIPS: And you talk about epic battles for Jerusalem. Get specific with us. Tells us what is happening now that totally correlates with what you've written about Biblically.
ROSENBERG: Well, that's right, Ezekiel 36 and 37 -- those are chapters in the Bible, in the Old Testament, that are about the rebirth of the State of Israel and Jerusalem coming back under Jewish control. We've seen those prophecies happen. Ezekiel 38 and 39 -- what my novel The Ezekiel Option is about -- is an alliance of Islamic countries to destroy Israel and liberate Jerusalem. Are we seeing that beginning to come true? That's the big question. Then Ezekiel 40 through 48 is about the rebuilding of the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem. Now, if that happens in our lifetime, that alone could unleash the wrath of a billion Muslims worldwide. That's what The Copper Scroll is about. Hunting for treasure. Hunting for ancient documents. And the series of events that could lead to the building of the Jewish Temple and an apocalyptic war in the Middle East.
PHILLIPS: All right, now Jerry, you know, there'sa number people who would sit back and say, "You know, that Jerry and that Joel, they are crazy. How can you take this book that's more than 1,000 years old, these are just stories, you can't relate it to what's happening right now." What do say to those critics?
JENKINS: I think that's the uniqueness of how we treat the Scripture. So many people try to interpret Revelation symbolically or figuratively and they can interpret it in a couple of hundred different ways. Dr. LaHaye's view has always been, let's take literally what we can take literally, and tell it as if John the Revelator [author of the Book of Revelation] meant what he said when he said, "I looked and I saw...." Unless he's making some comparison, let's just tell it as a literal story. It's really made it come to life for people and opened it [Revelation] up to make it understandable. It has for me as a writer. All the prophecies of the Old Testament about the coming of Christ as a baby were fulfilled literally. So we're saying, what if all the prophecies of the New Testament about Jesus coming back and Rapturing His Church are also literal? We should treat them that way and just see what it looks like.
PHILLIPS: Joel, you also write about the Prophet Zechariah, and if I remember right, let's see, I think it was [chapter] 12 -- right? -- 12:1-3.
ROSENBERG: That's right.
PHILLIPS: Make the correlation for our viewers.
ROSENBERG: Well, this is the prophecy that says that God is going to cause the nations of the world -- the leaders of the nations -- almost get drunk with the dream of recapturing Jerusalem. Now, the Bible says that first Jerusalem will come back under Jewish control in the last days. That'll be one of the indicators [of the last days]. Well, that's where we are today. What are we watching? Saddam Hussein, or Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, or Hezbollah leader Hassan Nasrallah -- they're all drunk with the dream of capturing Jerusalem. That's what The Copper Scroll novel is about, which is about this battle -- this intense battle -- to liquidate the Jewish people and liberate Jerusalem. I mean, are we seeing that happen? It's hard not to say that we are. That's why I've gotten invited over to the CIA, and the White House, and Congress. Because people -- it's not that they necessarily believe the prophecies, but they want to understand the prophecies in the Bible, in light of what is going on right now.
PHILLIPS: Do you think they're taking what you're saying and incorporating it into foreign policy?
ROSENBERG: I wouldn't go that far. But I would say that Bible prophecy is an intercept from the mind of God. It's actually fairly remarkable intelligence. And that's why my novels keep coming true, because mine are on this side of the Rapture -- leading up to Jerry and Tim's books -- but they suggest the events that the Bible does lay out that will gets us closer to those events. And in fact, one by one, The Last Jihad, The Last Days, The Ezekiel Option and now The Copper Scroll, they have this feeling of coming true. I think that's why a million copies have sold. They're New York Times best-sellers. Because they are based on Bible prophecy and they are coming true bit by bit, day by day.
PHILLIPS: Jerry, what do you think about what Joel wrote, about watching the rise of a Russian-Iranian alliance seeking to wipe out Israel?
JENKINS: Well, I find it very fascinating, and of course, Joel is a real geopolitical watcher. You know, compared to him I'm just a novelist. As he said, Dr. LaHaye and I are writing about things that are yet to come in the far future. But one of our takes is that nothing else has to happen before Jesus returns. He could do it at any time, regardless of who's in charge or what the state of the Temple is. We feel that all the prophecies have been fulfilled leading up to the return of Christ, which means it could be today, tomorrow, next week or 100 years from now. I'm fascinated by all the stuff that Joel is watching and seeing and just love hearing him talk about it.
PHILLIPS: Joel, do I need to start taking care of unfinished business, and telling people that I love them and I'm sorry for all the evil things I've done.
ROSENBERG: Well, I think that would be a good start. I mean, Jesus loves the people of the Middle East. Matthew 15, Jesus was in southern Lebanon. Why? Telling the people of Lebanon that He loved them, that God loved them. What's interesting is that I was just at the Iraqi Prime Minister's speech today. You know, the Bible talked in Jewish theology and Christian that Iraq would be reborn as a country and would become phenomenally peaceful and prosperous, and then a terrible dictator known as the Antichrist will arise. Watching this speech today in the House of Representatives, the first speech by an Iraqi Prime Minister to a Joint Session of Congress, it strikes me that bit by bit we're watching Revelation and these other prophecies get closer to fulfillment.
PHILLIPS: Joel Rosenberg and Jerry Jenkins, you both scare me, but you both fascinate me. Gentlemen, thank you so much. I appreciate it.
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